Welcome to the 250th episode of TV’s Top 5, The Hollywood Reporter’s TV podcast.
Every week, hosts Lesley Goldberg (West Coast TV editor) and Daniel Fienberg (chief TV critic) break down the latest TV news with context from the business and critical sides, welcome showrunners, executives and other guests, and provide a critical guide of what to watch (or skip, as the case may be).
This week, married showrunners Michelle and Robert King join us for their second visit to TV’s Top 5 as they open up about Elsbeth, the Carrie Preston vehicle in which the beloved actress reprises her role from both The Good Fight and The Good Wife. The Kings, however, don’t consider Elsbeth a spinoff but rather their attempt at making a modern-day Columbo.
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During the wide-ranging interview, the Kings also discuss why The Good Fight was too niche for broadcast, if other characters from the Good franchise will pop into Elsbeth and why they refuse to do so-called mini-rooms despite the industry’s belt tightening. Read on for more from the Kings and listen to the full interview with TV’s Top 5, below.
When did the idea for Elsbeth come to mind or did an exec ask to keep the franchise going?
MICHELLE KING: It never occurred to me that we were doing a spinoff. It was a separate show and it’s such a completely different world.
ROBERT KING: Over the pandemic, we were catching up on all these eight-hour movie series that was like, “OK, we can get maybe an hour or two in.” It was just like, “Can we just put on another Columbo?” It’s not taxing — I don’t need to read Dostoevsky to understand — and yet it is really witty. It occurred to us the character in our wheelhouse was Elsbeth, which wasn’t just then about a class issue like Columbo — it was misogyny and a lot of interesting things — and we could probably shoot in New York, finally as New York, which was a good thing, too.
The Good Fight was an executive coming to us — “We want to keep Good Wife going.” We thought we were going to hand it off to a showrunner but we got roped into that and then Trump won. With Elsbeth, Michelle and I thought it would be fun TV. Not all TV has to be pretentious (laughs).
Did that automatically make it a broadcast show?
MICHELLE KING: It felt like a broadcast showed to me.
The Good Wife aired on CBS. The Good Fight was for Paramount+ and now you’re back at CBS with Elsbeth. Does it matter if viewers haven’t seen the latter as they tune in to Elsbeth?
MICHELLE KING: It doesn’t matter at all you haven’t seen Good Wife or Good Fight to enjoy Elsbeth.
ROBERT KING: We wanted to do a Columbo-like show, not a show where you needed an encyclopedia understand because I do think that’s a lot of the superhero fatigue, too: “Oh, God, just friggin’ tell me a story.”
Your shows have often presented as star vehicles and then matured into ensembles. The first three episodes of Elsbeth are very much Elsbeth, as there are only three series regulars — a low number for a network show. Is the plan to become an ensemble over time?
MICHELLE KING: The show was conceived to be this structure. It is not meant to add a bunch of series regulars and change drastically in terms of how it’s structured.
In this era of contraction, broadcast shows have been especially hit hard with budget reductions — the Blue Bloods cast took a 25 percent pay cut to get a final season, for example. How much of this having only three regulars is in response to that network belt-tightening?
MICHELLE KING: We were cognizant of the economics and, in our minds, it’s actually four series regulars because the big guest star of the week subs in for another series regular. We were very deliberate when we were conceiving the show.
Michelle said she didn’t view this as a spinoff. Is this not a shared universe with The Good Wife and The Good Fight?
ROBERT KING: I have no way to answer that because I don’t think this is like The Avengers, where they are probably living in the same universe but in different timelines. It’s New York and Elsbeth does say that she was a lawyer in Chicago. But I don’t want to never say never because you never know what will come down the pike. You never know whether you really want to use Julianna Margulies as a killer or something.
MICHELLE KING: We’re trying to remain true to the idea that Elsbeth worked as an attorney in Chicago and moved to New York. It isn’t as though she’s had a memory wipe and she doesn’t remember anyone.
Paramount+ recently announced that Evil is ending with season four and that you’ve got four more episodes to help bring the show to its conclusion. What reasoning did they give you for wanting to end the show and how did you parlay that into four bonus episodes?
MICHELLE KING: They liked the show and wanted to honor it by giving it a chance to wrap up in a way that honored the show, as opposed to just cutting it off at the end of the fourth season, which certainly could have been the case. Allowing us to do a four-episode fifth season is a way to give the fans — and us — a sense of closure.
ROBERT KING: You guys know how this business is changing. It’s a show that was doing well for them but aging shows don’t do as well as new shows. We’re glad they gave us the opportunity because nine of the episodes were shot and completed before the strike and we brought everybody back in December for the 10th and then we brought the room back together for these last four. When you play all 14 together it’s like going back to the way TV used to be done. It’s really entertaining.
What is the approach that you’re taking in terms of how those four episodes are going to feel?
MICHELLE KING: It’s a fifth season, but it will air a week after season four.
ROBERT KING: In the plot, it’s the next day from the end of episode 10 to the start of episode eleven.
Did you have a sense where Evil was going to end? Is that where these last four episodes take you?
ROBERT KING: It’s the same with Good Fight: we knew the region of the ending, and then you react to what’s going on the world. Much like Good Fight, Evil is about the world we’re in today and the evil that we all perceive around us. It has a supernatural element, but the supernatural element might be a personification of the psychology of the show.
In the aftermath of the show ending, a cast member effectively pitched Netflix to pick up Evil as it didn’t sound like you guys were ready to hang it up just yet. Have you had any conversations about selling the show elsewhere?
MICHELLE KING: We have not. We’re focused on making that last fifth season as satisfying to the audience and to ourselves as we can the actors as we can.
ROBERT KING: It’s a testament to how much our actors love working together and doing this material that that was written. It was very sweet in its way.
Does Evil feel like something that could continue in some form with a spinoff the way Good Fight/Good Wife continues to live on with Elsbeth?
MICHELLE KING: We love these characters so I would never say no, but that’s not a conversation we’ve been having.
ROBERT KING: Horror is not a genre that goes away and horror with some comedy is really fun. Like with The Good Fight/Good Wife world, we don’t want to feel limited to horror.
You’re working now on Happy Face for Paramount+. What’s the appeal there for you both?
MICHELLE KING: Who doesn’t want to know more about this young woman who, at age 13-14, discovers that the father she adores is in fact a serial killer? Who doesn’t want to know how that plays out the rest of her life?
ROBERT KING: What’s fascinating is the double faces of it. That you could be one person at home and another person out in the world, killing people. The show is named after the Happy Face killer but it really is the story of his daughter.
We’ve talked about the industry’s contraction post-strike. What are the biggest changes that you’ve seen since returning to work after the strike ended?
MICHELLE KING: Every conversation involves a discussion of budget. There’s no talking about anything without a dollar sign being attached to it.
ROBERT KING: What was always fun about TV was collaborating with people — even executives — and sometimes the power has been taken out of the hands of executives because the decisions are all about return on investment.
We like to end these interviews with the same question: What have you been watching and enjoying?
ROBERT KING: Shogun is so good, so smart.
MICHELLE KING: And Mr. and Mrs. Smith is terrific.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity. To hear much more from the Kings, listen to the full conversation from TV’s Top 5, above.
