Welcome to the 248th episode of TV’s Top 5, The Hollywood Reporter’s TV podcast.
Every week, hosts Lesley Goldberg (West Coast TV editor) and Daniel Fienberg (chief TV critic) break down the latest TV news with context from the business and critical sides, welcome showrunners, executives and other guests, and provide a critical guide of what to watch (or skip, as the case may be).
This week, Peak TV is top of mind as we break down the latest numbers (courtesy of FX’s A+ research department) as 20th Television president Karey Burke joins us for a wide-ranging conversation about the industry-wide contraction. Other topics discussed in this week’s podcast include the Super Bowl and, in the Critic’s Corner, reviews of Apple’s The New Look, Netflix’s The Vince Staples Show and season two of Hulu’s Life and Beth.
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But first, read on for Burke’s thoughts on the state of the industry. Listen to the full, extended interview in this week’s TV’s Top 5:
The industry has changed considerably since you last joined us. You now run one of Disney’s biggest TV studios, and more recently, the Peak TV bubble has burst. From your vantage point, what do you consider the biggest challenge for the industry as a whole right now?
The challenge is the adjustment to the correction. Helping our creative partners to stay focused on quality over quantity, which is something that we’ve always tried to focus on. Things got pretty out of whack in terms of how many shows we were all collectively producing every year and how much we were asking the viewers to try to pay attention to. The correction is a good thing. It brings us back to the primary focus, which is quality over quantity and having the work stand the test of being truly must-see. We’re challenging ourselves to be more responsible when it comes to production costs, how we make things, making them responsibly, and getting everybody in that same boat, and rowing in the same direction to do that, and remembering that guardrails can be a great thing for creativity and not a squashing of creativity.
How much have things changed at 20th TV specifically?
There was a time, maybe 18 months ago, where it felt the volume was simply too much. Our ability to quality control the amount of content that was going out the door for our creative partners got really challenged, and it feels now like we’ve right-sized that flow.
How do you end up in that position of feeling like you’re going downhill, and the brakes are out on your car, and there’s nothing you can do? And at what point do you realize the brakes are out on your car?
I don’t think we felt like we weren’t producing good work for our partners and with our partners. But I do think that we collectively felt at capacity unless we really bulked up our ranks. It felt like there wasn’t enough time to have all the attention to detail that we would want. And it didn’t last long. The business naturally corrected itself.
You say it was a natural correction. But how much of the correction was to some degree forced on you guys by the strikes last year?
This was happening before the strikes.
FX CEO John Landgraf told me this week that he thinks the inciting factor of Peak TV’s demise was Netflix changing the key metric from subscriber growth to profits. Would you agree?
I would agree with my colleague.
There was a lot of speculation that after the strikes, the marketplace would open up again and the floodgates would open with dealmaking. How has the actual opening of the dealmaking floodgates compared to what you might have hoped or expected or feared that would be?
The town was not flooded with spec scripts. I was a producer during the last strike in 2007, and there was more of a buying frenzy post-strike. Whether it was the time of year that we ended — sliding into the holidays — I’m not sure. But surprisingly — and frankly, happily — we returned pretty quickly to a normal course of business, and that chaos of selling didn’t really manifest.
We’re smack in the middle of what used to be one of the busiest times of year for 20th: broadcast pilot season. What’s the perk and the pain of selling to broadcast right now, especially in this landscape where you’ve got networks like CBS and Fox who are essentially sitting the season out?
The perk is we produce Tracker. We are thrilled with how CBS has supported and launched that show, and it goes back to how they picked up that pilot very early and went straight to series off cycle. They were able to give us the time to hone it to have it become something that they felt so supremely confident in that they could put behind the Super Bowl. I have long felt that shows our advantage by being out of the sausage factory of pilot season. It is not the best way to make television. I’ll make a couple pilots this year, and I’m happy to have more time, a deeper talent pool and more resources to be able to do that and get them right. It feels good to know that they’ll take that chance and get something going into series production off cycle versus waiting for this ceremonial and frankly antiquated three months out of the year where we all chase the same actors, directors and producers.
Where do things stand with Ryan Murphy? Has his deal to return home to 20th closed? Does he have new ideas beyond the franchises that he’s currently attached to?
We’ve been in business with Ryan for over 20 years, which is incredible. We’re going to continue to be in business with Ryan for as long as he wants to create shows, which feels limitless. I am thrilled with the performance of Feud, which has been in the top 15 on Hulu every day since its launch.
So, his deal has closed?
I’m not commenting. He’s part of our family, and he always will be.
What would you say is the priority for him there?
We have announced that Kim Kardashian show for Hulu. For us to have a new, original, ongoing procedural from Ryan with the most recognized name in the world … and the concept that he came up with for her is brilliant. I can’t wait for that show. Our priority with Ryan is whatever he wants to do, and he’s the master of both [ongoing and limited series]. The priority for all of us at this moment is shows that can return that can stay on for years on end and build big libraries for us.
How do you measure the value of a potentially adaptable or remarkable title when it comes to IP? And are there overarching lessons you’ve been able to learn from big-name adaptations — some from 20th — that have not been as successful? Like Hulu’s How I Met Your Father?
That was a surprise and a head-scratcher to all of us. Season one was a hit, and it was an easily renewable show. I’m not sure I can put my finger on why [it was canceled]. I think multicamera comedy on streaming platforms is still an experiment. That could be a factor.
Right, but National Treasure, Willow, American Born Chinese all also didn’t work. What’s the lesson?
Just because it’s known IP doesn’t mean it’s going to work. It has to have a real reason for being that feels new and relevant to the audience. And sometimes that’s catching lightning in a bottle
How has the Suits effect impacted your own perspective on kind of the future viability of more recent legacy titles within your catalog?
It’s caused us to look at our catalog and ask, “Is there another Suits in here?” Was this an anomaly? We’re talking about a couple of titles that we have in the library.
In one of our first wide-ranging interviews when you were plucked from Freeform to run ABC, you said you had an idea for Dan Fogelman. And now you run the studio where he’s based. What’s the state of his current deal, and did that idea that you had for him come to fruition yet?
No, it hasn’t. We’re going to keep him around long enough for him to do it. Our plan is to have Dan stay for as long as he wants to continue to make television. He is hard at work on Only Murders in the Building and a new show for Hulu with Sterling K. Brown, James Marsden and Julianne Nicholson. I’ve seen seven scripts, and it’s unlike anything he’s ever done before. Dan will not repeat himself. The idea I had for him when I was at ABC was some derivative thing of something he’d done before. And he said, “No, lady, I’m not going to do that.”
There have been conflicting reports this week about Sarah J. Maas’ A Court of Thorns and Roses adaptation, which last we heard was in development at Hulu. Is that still in active development with Ron Moore attached?
Yes, nothing has changed since Craig Erwich said it was still in development.
Do you have a sense of a timeline for where things are in that process?
I don’t.
Ron Moore started an overall deal with Disney back in 2021 and one of the first projects he took on was The Society of Explorers and Adventurers for Disney+. Where do things stand with that?
It is also still in development.
Between ACOTAR and SEA, is one moving quicker than the other?
We just saw a draft of SEA from Ron after he was able to get back to work after the strikes. We hope to be delivering that to Disney Branded Television pretty soon.
Paramount announced layoffs of 800 people this week. With an industry-wide push to cut costs amid the shift to focus on profitability over subscribers, how are you seeing budgets and deals being impacted? What’s the area that is taking the biggest hit as you try to make shows more economically?
I don’t see it as a hit. It’s a renewed focus on responsible producing and being cost-conscious but without damaging the creativity. Not every show that’s done for streaming needs to have a Game of Thrones-size budget. We’re learning to be more nimble and, frankly, more international in our approach to production and exploring production and in other countries.
A lot of writers and producers of color have expressed concern that the dramatic decline in pilots is going to favor the bigger names with the bigger development deals, which runs the risk of making it harder for writers from underrepresented groups to get the exposure that even a failed pilot used to provide for them. Ditto with the actors who were in those pilots who at least had the chance to go in front of the casting directors. Is this a concern that you’re keeping in mind? And is there a way that you can keep it from happening, even as there are dozens fewer pilots being made?
The concern is valid. Our job is to make sure it doesn’t happen. The pilots that we are putting forth to our partners do have a mix of up-and-coming new voices and creators of color. One of my favorite things we’re making right now is a series called Deli Boys for Onyx. That is about a pair of Pakistani brothers from a Pakistani writer. We’ve gone to great lengths to make sure we were staffing and casting that right.
Are there alternative pipelines to make sure that there are those potential avenues open as the pilot season avenue becomes tighter or more constrained?
We’re talking with a couple of our creative partners about creating opportunities to do lower-cost presentations.
There’s been a narrative that the industry’s contraction has disproportionately impacted diverse programming. Does that feel accurate to you?
The question is valid. It doesn’t ring true to me here at 20th. Our job is to continue to reflect the culture, and we cannot rely on a closed set of creators to do that. [Diversity and inclusion] is a big priority for us, and we’ll continue to make sure that our roster has inclusion and representation always.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity. To hear much more from Burke, listen to the full conversation from TV’s Top 5, above.
